Option 1:Holden mentions he is depressed or finds certain things "depressing." Is Holden depressed? If so, any ideas why? What seems to depress him or what does he find "depressing"? Is there any consistency or commonality?
Option 2: Provide your observations and insights. Include a quote that you think is the most essential for these chapters.
In The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D Salinger, Holden begins chapter 13 by using a stream of consciousness in a hypothetical situation where a boy steals his gloves but Holden does nothing to get them back. He later then explains his ambiguity towards losing things. “I think maybe I'm just partly yellow and partly the type that doesn't give much of a damn if they lose their gloves. One of my troubles is, I never care too much when I lose something…” This further develops Holden’s carefree attitude. I would like to know why Holden is the way he is, and why he doesn’t care much about anything or anyone, except Jane. Holden’s constant moving to schools suggests that he doesn’t care about losing the people he’s met. He never stays in one place, and never makes real connections, which is why he is so disconcerted with losing things. He also states that he’s partly a coward as well, which I believe means that he’s scared of how people see him. He prolongs coming home from Pencey in order to spare his mom’s disappointment. He lied to the mother of Ernest Morrow on the train. He also seems to compare himself to his siblings who seem to be more intelligent than him as well. Holden’s carelessness can perhaps be contributed to low self esteem. His dropping out of schools could mean that he’s really stopped trying to impress people, such as his parents which are foreshadowed to be hard on him as talked about in the previous commentary.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you said about how Holden doesn't seem to care about connections with people and that he is very carefree. I think that this is also odd that he appears this way because he also talks about many things in his past. He talks about people from previous schools he's attended, he talks about his brother Allie a lot, and he talked a lot about Jane, etc. He seems to be holding on to all these moments yet he never makes the effort to keep those connections with people. He calls them phony or he dwells on them being gone without trying to get over it or make an effort to talk to them (Jane.) I don't really understand if he is one hundred percent carefree in the sense of people and connections he loses. Sometimes I wonder if he just acts that way to appear like nothing hurts him and that there's nothing wrong. I don't think Holden really knows how to keep relationships with people and that's why he is depressed. He is very alone as he doesn't have stable relationships.
DeleteThroughout the book, Holden finds many things depressing, which may contribute to his disdainful attitude. Holden, himself, is also depressed because he has no true understanding of himself or his future. This is illustrated in his indecisiveness and lack of motivation and application to the schools he attends. In these chapters, Holden pays for a prostitute, but then changes his mind later. He calls Sally up for a date, but at the end of chapter 16 he says he wish he hadn’t. While Holden is very cynical about countless things, he is also consistent in the fact that he quiet; lack of true people (not “phonies”) seems to be where Holden notes his depression the most. “There was hardly anybody in the lobby any more...It was too depressing,” (43). He mentions his siblings a lot throughout the story, and really admires them both. The absence of his little brother Allie could be a reason why he is so detached from people. Holden mentions doing numerous things with Allie and it can be inferred that they had a really good relationship. Holden has a habit of picking out everyone else’s flaws, or their “fakeness” as Holden would refer to it; perhaps since nobody is as “real” to Holden, or more respected than his brother, Holden is depressed and this fact adds to his feelings of alienation.
ReplyDeleteHolden is also rather hypocritical in his criticisms. Very often he is guilty of doing things that could be considered superficial or phony. For example, he rants about how much he despises movies, but he still frequently goes to them. He also goes on a tirade about having to deal with people with crumby suitcases. He criticizes yet still partakes in everything he professes that he hates.
DeletePerhaps one of the main reasons Holden feels so isolated is because of his brother's death. He only mentions Allie a few times, which could suggest that he is trying to suppress the grief that comes with it. However, the few times that he does mention Allie seem to be tender, and free of Holden's regular crude diction. Throughout the novel, Holden facing an adult reality or maturity is a main theme, and perhaps part of it is overcoming the grief of his brother dying.
DeleteHolden was very depressed. I think one of the reasons he was so depressed is because of Allie's death. Allie was perhaps the only person Holden truly respected. When Allie died, Holden began to think the worst in everybody and developed a cynical lens through which he viewed the world around him. This affected his thoughts and made him incapable of developing true relationships with people. It is ironic though that the things Holden called "phony" were things he often did, such as lying and claiming to be someone or something he was not.
DeleteHolden was very depressed. I think one of the reasons he was so depressed is because of Allie's death. Allie was perhaps the only person Holden truly respected. When Allie died, Holden began to think the worst in everybody and developed a cynical lens through which he viewed the world around him. This affected his thoughts and made him incapable of developing true relationships with people. It is ironic though that the things Holden called "phony" were things he often did, such as lying and claiming to be someone or something he was not.
DeleteHolden Caulfied is depressed, and everything seems to depress him. He says he is depressed in almost every chapter. Thinking about stolen gloves and cowardice depresses him. Thinking about suitcases depresses him. Even seeing a dirty park depresses him. Holden is depressed because he has a lot of expectations for the world and himself, and he does not meet those expectations.
ReplyDeleteAfter Holden Caulfield left the club he walked to the hotel in the cold, because he did not want to take a cab. His hands were cold, and that made him remember that someone at his old school stole his gloves. He wished he knew who it was, but then admitted that he would not have done anything to the thief. He said he would not do anything, because he is a coward. His cowardice made him depressed. He said,"The more I thought about my gloves and my yellowness, the more depressed I got...(90)." Holden is depressed, because of his "yellowness." "Yellowness" is a metaphor for cowardice. I think the metaphor adds imagery to the story, and emphasizes his self criticism. Throughout the story Holden is very critical of other people. I think this is one of the few instances that we see Holden criticize himself. He is depressed because he is not strong enough to fight a battle he thinks he should be able to fight. He has an expectation of himself that he can not meet. I think it is also important to remember that he is also depressed about the gloves. Holden is depressed about the gloves, because someone stole them. Holden Holden thinks someone stealing his gloves is wrong. If he did not think it was wrong he would not want to punch the thief in the face. Holden expects people to do the right thing, but people don't always do the right thing. Holden is depressed because people don't meet his expectation; no one is good.
Later in the story Holden encounters nuns in a diner. The nuns have cheap suitcases which make him think about a boy he knew at a former school. The boy had cheap suitcases, and Holden had really expensive suitcases. Holden said, "He used to keep [the suitcases] under the bed, instead of on the rack, so that nobody'd see them standing next to mine. It depressed holy hell out of me, and I kept wanting to throw mine out or something, or even trade with him(108)."
Holden felt bad because he had something more expensive than someone else.
Holden felt so bad that he started putting his suitcases under the bed. Holden was depressed because they were not equally rich. I think Holden wishes, or expects, equality for everyone. However, that is not reality. I think Holden knows that that is not reality, but he can't help his expectations for the world.
When Holden went to the park he said he was depressed by the park. He said,
"...there didn't look like there was anything in the park except dog crap and globs of spit and cigar butts from old men, and the benches all looked like they'd be wet if you sat down on them. It made you depressed..(118)"
Holden was depressed because it was dirty. I think he is depressed, because he can see the park for what it could be. It could be beautiful. I think it is not just about the park. I think the park is a metaphor for the world. I think Holden is depressed at the dirtiness of the world. Holden expects beauty; he wants beauty. All he sees is dirtiness, brokenness, and pain.
Option 1:
ReplyDeleteI believe Holden is depressed not only because of his brother’s death, but I feel as though he doesn’t think he measures up to his expectations for himself. His word choice with the excessive use of the word moron along with depressing thoughts brought among the smallest of actions add to the idea that Holden is depressed. When Holden is eating breakfast and the two nuns sit beside him, he notices their suitcases and describes them as the inexpensive kind that aren’t genuine leather or anything. It makes him think of his old roomates’ suitcase. “It depressed holy hell out of me, and I kept wanting to throw mine out or something, or even trade with him,” (Salinger, 108.) This instance of Holden being depressed relates to some of the other times he gets depressed. Holden seems to get depressed when people aren’t as rich as him or as privileged as him in something. He seems to be very kind-hearted and giving like giving the nuns ten dollars. The thought of not being equal with someone seems to depress him since he is so kind. Holden also gets depressed when he overthinks things. At first when he found out his gloves were stolen he didn’t make as huge of a deal about it but when he walked home instead of taking a taxi cab, he was cold and upset about the gloves. He calls himself yellow which basically is referring to him that he’s a coward. Holden says he wouldn’t even fight the person if he knew who stole his gloves because he doesn’t like looking in people’s faces. “The more I thought about my gloves and my yellowness, the more depressed I got, and I decided, while I was walking and all, to stop off and have a drink somewhere,” (Salinger, 90.) This brings back to the idea that Holden gets depressed when he over thinks and when he doesn’t like who he is as a person. He says that it’s not even good to be yellow yet he calls himself yellow. Holden seems to contradict himself quite a bit in judging people for things that he is himself. He calls people cowards all the time yet he says he’s a bit of one himself and it depresses him. Society in general seems to depress him and he has all these high expectations. He doesn’t seem to meet his own expectations which depresses him.
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ReplyDeleteHolden describes things as depressing a lot in these few chapters. I think that this is a big clue for us to see that he himself is actually severely depressed. He has a lot going on in his life and it isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Holden's brother Allie has died and I think this really is getting to him. He wrote a poem about his glove in recent chapters and this opened up his death again which is causing some of the depression. Holden is also depressed because he isn't living up to the expectations that he has set for himself. He keeps getting kicked out of schools, even the one he is in right now but hasn't told anyone. In Chapter 16, Salinger wrote, "All the two of them were eating for breakfast was toast and coffee. That depressed me. I hate it if I'm eating bacon and eggs or something and somebody else is only eating toast and coffee." We can tell by this quote that Holden is feeling guilty for being such a privileged person. He is eating a big breakfast while these people across the way were just eating some toast. He feels sorry for them and it makes him sad that some people aren't as privileged as he is. He could also be disappointed in himself for not being very successful while being so privileged. This idea also goes along with the suitcase ordeal. He had a roommate once who had very inexpensive suitcases. When he sees that the ladies eating just toast have very cheap suitcases, it makes him even more depressed since he has very expensive suitcases. The suitcases begin to symbolize social classes, rich and poor. Holden is depressed to see all these poor people walking around while he has so much money
ReplyDeleteYet at the same time he seems to criticize the people who are poor. He falls victim to the social stigma and does not want to be seen around them. He has an almost instinctive aversion to them. For example, he can not stand to see people with ratty looking suitcases. He may very well feel guilt deep down, but he still has the shallow exterior of a child raised in privilege.
DeleteI agree that Holden is depressed about the passing of his brother, Allie. I think that the depression from his passing has gotten to Holden so extremely, and he isn't sure how to come to terms with it. So because he is avoiding dealing with his pain from his brother passing, he instead is focusing on other small details throughout life that he can blame his depression on. The things that he focuses on all share the idea that someone has more than another for unknown reasons. That idea correlates to the fact that Holden could be depressed that Allie didn't get the chance to live his life despite all of his potential, and Holden does even though he is screwing everything up.
DeleteI believe wholeheartedly that Holden is depressed. It seems that he is depressed by many things. While some of these things are trivial, they all seem to fit within an overall window.
ReplyDeleteHe is aware of all the “phony” behavior adults partake in, and expresses vehemently how much he hates it. He seems to think of himself as someone who is above everyone else, something he accomplishes through the layer of cynicism through which he sees the world. “One of the biggest reasons I left Elkton Hills was because I was surrounded by phonies. That's all. They were coming in the goddam window.” However, he does many things these phony adults do, mainly lie and deceive other people. “I'm the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life. It's awful.” While he often calls people phony when they act like they are perfect despite their imminent flaws, he honestly does the very same thing; this is something that he eventually seems to realize and causes him lots of distress. The person he perhaps respects the most is his younger brother Allie, who died as a child. He said he was intelligent and sweet, not doing anything phony as an adult would. “You'd have liked him. He was two years younger than I was, but he was about fifty times as intelligent. He was terrifically intelligent. His teachers were always writing letters to my mother, telling her what a pleasure it was having a boy like Allie in their class. And they weren't just shooting the crap. They really meant it. But it wasn't just that he was the most intelligent member in the family. He was also the nicest, in lots of ways.”
He also seems to alienate himself as a way to protect himself from the ever-changing outside world. He seems to isolate himself in virtually everything he does, which is his attempt to shield himself from pain. “Anyway, it was the Saturday of the football game. […] I remember around three o'clock that afternoon I was standing way the hell up on top of Thomsen Hill. […] You could see the whole field from there, and you could see the two teams bashing each other all over the place. […] You could hear them all yelling.” Conversely, Holden is very lonely throughout the story, constantly seeking some attention. "’Well – take me to the Edmont then,’ I said. ‘Would you care to stop on the way and join me for a cocktail? On me, I'm loaded.’" However, he couples this with isolation, whether it is being rude to people or overly cynical, he makes it so he cannot hang out with people. So while it acts as a kind of security blanket from the outside world, it still brings him a lot of emotional turmoil.
Holden desires to be different from everyone else, but is also very self-conscious. This is symbolized effectively by his red hunting hat. The hat is very unique, which symbolizes that Holden wants some individuality in his life, but he is embarrassed by it. He only wears it when he is by himself and not around people he knows for the most part. “I took off my coat and my tie and unbuttoned my shirt collar; and then I put on this hat that I'd bought in New York that morning. It was this red hunting hat, with one of those very, very long peaks. I saw it in the window of this sports store when we got out of the subway, just after I noticed I'd lost all the goddam foils. It only cost me a buck. The way I wore it, I swung the old peak way around to the back--very corny, I'll admit, but I liked it that way. I looked good in it that way.” It represents his desire to be isolated contrasting with his want of belonging with others.
ReplyDeletePerhaps most importantly, In his quest to avoid maturity, he thinks of himself as a “catcher in the rye”, someone who can catch the innocent little kids playing in a field of rye before they fall off the cliff into adulthood. "’I thought it was 'If a body catch a body,' I said. ‘Anyway, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody's around—nobody big, I mean—except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff—I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be. I know it's crazy.’" Although this idea of his comes from a song about recreational intercourse in a field of rye, he mishears the word “meet” for “catch” and thinks of stopping kids from reaching adulthood, which is very different from the actual message of the song.
I find that Holden does seem to be depressed. In nearly every observation he makes Holden describes something as either stupid or depressing. There is little, if any, happiness in Holden's thoughts and observations. Holden's frequent lying and his frequent adoption of different aliases may very well be attempts to escape his normal life. My theory as to why Holden may be depressed is the loss off his brother. The loss of a family member can be extremely traumatizing, especially the loss of someone you are close to. I think Holden losing his brother deeply wounded him, and caused him to push away everyone around him. One large commonality in the things Holden finds depressing is anything or anyone shallow and superficial. He constantly complains about and berates anyone who is fake in any way. The only people he tends to like are those that are genuine. For example, Holden took a particular liking to the Nuns he met at the station. To him they were real. They did not hide behind any sort of facade.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your ideas on this. Holden hates people who are "phony". He can't stand them. I also think that the lose of his brother has taken a huge toll on him and has caused him to be severely depressed, as you said, the lose of someone close to you can do that. I think that Holden's negative tone is kind of affected by his brother's death as well, however, he could change that tone. He doesn't have to take out Allie's death on everyone. The aliases he does take on may tell us that he has a mental illness. Does he have a mental illness such as schizophrenia? Is it severe?
DeleteHolden is depressed when thinking about the idea of someone having not as nice of suitcases as another person. He is depressed about the nuns not eating a lot for breakfast. The idea of him being yellow also depresses him. The pattern seen among these things is that he gets depressed about seemingly unimportant things in life. He never talks about him being depressed about his brother being gone or him dropping out of school, so instead, he blames his depression on some random things that he sees around him. That is another similarity seen among the different things that depresses Holden. Granted, it is saddening when you clearly are more privileged than others and that you can't really help them. I think that Holden is depressed overall. The idea of having more than others bothers him greatly, and that's probably why he is always trying to give his money to others that seemingly could use it more than he could. I believe that an underlying thing causing the depression over people having less than him is the idea that Allie no longer has his life, while Holden still has his, but isn't making anything of it. I think that Holden wants to do something with his life, but he can't bring himself to it, and so he probably looks back onto his life and thinks that he should have been the one to go rather than Allie, since Allie had so many things going for him whereas Holden does not.
ReplyDeleteSince he doesn't really mention being depressed about major things, is he trying to forget? Is he trying to forget that his brother is really dead? Is that why he talks to him all the time?
ReplyDeleteI like your insight into him feeling guilty about the life that he has, and the life that Allie does not have.
I believe Holden is depressed, though he is not aware of it. He informs the reader that his brother Allie died of leukemia which would be a valid reason for Holden's moodiness and depression. The night that Allie died Holden broke all the windows in the garage (doing enough damage to his hands to be hospitalized) which indicates that his brother's death had a significant impact on him. Holden finds almost everything depressing, which one can say is consistent but more specifically he is depressed when people's actions don't agree with his view of the world. He is very set in his ways and believes he understands people. For example when he was with the prostitute Sunny, thinking about her buying the dress she was wearing depressed him because the person who sold her the dress most likely didn't know she was a prostitute. It also bothered Holden that Sunny was a prostitute at such a young age, enough so that he paid her without ever having sex with her. Another thing that depressed Holden was walking through Pheobe's school to give her a note and seeing vulgar messages written and scratched on the walls. Holden was depressed by this because it was in a place where younger children could see it and wonder what it meant.
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