Chapters 11-20 include a lot of symbolism of clothing, cigars, and wine to show the relationships between Edna and Robert, and Edna and her husband. Edna and Mr. Pontellier are starting to drift. She is starting to realize that she is not his possession. She isn't an object and doesn't have to do every single thing that he tells her to. When he is smoking the cigars, this is a symbol of masculinity. We notice that before, Mr. Pontellier asked Robert if he smoked. Robert replied that he did smoke cigars, but only on special occasions as they were not in his price range. This symbolizes how Mr. Pontellier has a more masculine personality than Robert. It also shows power over women since women were forbidden of smoking in these days. Edna is still under an oppression where she is told that she can and can't do certain things. As the story goes on, Edna starts removing pieces of clothing here and there. At one point she is naked, but only temporarily while she sleeps for a long time. Sleeping can also have a deeper meaning of dying. Edna having no clothes and stripping clothes off along the way can be a symbol that she is leaving the oppression of her husband, but can only do it through "sleeping" or death. She eventually wakes up and says she feels that she has slept for years. Chopin wrote, "When Edna awoke it was with the conviction that she had slept long and soundly. The voices were hushed under the shed."(13). The voices are meant to be the oppression she is feeling and the laws that she is expected to follow, including following her husband's orders. After she meets with Robert again, he tells her that he is leaving for Mexico. She realizes that she started to fall for him, but can't leave with him yet because of her husband and children, even though she would love to, but Edna also doesn't want a relationship or to be "tied down". She doesn't want to be a possession to anyone, including her kids which throws off her mother assets. She becomes a terrible mother because she thinks that being a mother includes being owned by her husband and she wants nothing to do with that.
Is leaving with Robert even a consideration for either of them? Do you think she truly loves him or loves how she feels with him? How does she and her exprience differ between the two men?
I don't think she considered it at the last second that he decided to leave. He probably started to realize that she was losing interest in him. She probably loves how she feels with him. He doesn't command her to do things like her husband does so it feels like he actually cares, but she realizes she's still a possession if she goes with him so she decides not to.
“‘You used to think the cook was a treasure,’ returned Edna, indifferently. ‘Perhaps she was when she first came; but cooks are only human.” (pg. 79) At this point in chapter seventeen, Mr. Pontellier acts very rudely towards Edna. He complains that her cooking is awful, that she has gone out instead of taking calls, and he has noticed she’s not in her normal Tuesday reception gown. Edna might have gone out instead of taking calls just to prove her freedom rather than being confined to her home. During this scene, Mr. Pontellier also ends up leaving to go have dinner at the club. This leaves Edna with a feeling of unrest. She ends up flinging her wedding ring onto the carpet and stamping on it, but not a bit of it was ruined. I think these two passages together are symbolic not only of the Pontelliers’ relationship, but of relationships in that time period. Edna seems as though she doesn’t truly love her husband, and he is quite unloving himself towards her. Regardless, they are married and that’s not something that can change during this time period. It’s symbolic of the idea that Edna cannot free herself and she is bound to this relationship. Her husband objectifies her and expects her to live up to all his standards, but she just wants him to appreciate her. Edna enjoys Robert because he spent time with her. When she finds out earlier that Robert was going to Mexico without telling her, she gets very upset. I think Robert might have gone to Mexico to maybe get away from Edna. He might’ve realized that his feelings were too much to be near her while she is married, and he’s doing it for both of their benefits. When Robert leaves and Edna returns home, she becomes very lonely without him which might be the reason for her dressing badly at dinner or the dinner tasting bad. Edna also seems overpowered by thoughts of religion. She becomes sleepy during a service and has to leave because of it and heads to Madame Antoine’s house. “Edna left alone in the little side room, loosened her clothes, removing the greater part of them.” (pg. 55) I believe Edna is sick of social norms and releasing her body of the clothing and sleeping for a long time is a symbol of her needing to be free. She seems to be confined by her husband, religion, and lifestyle. This could have been a way for her to release her stress.
I do not believe that Mr. Pontellier does not love his wife. I believe that he may objectify her from time to time, but this is not the true extent of their relationship. He loves her as a husband should. He is a man with a short temper and a man stuck in traditional ways. He is very much concerned about appearances, and that is why he is so frustrated with Edna when she starts acting different than normal. He still loves her though. He recognizes that something is very off, and even goes to the doctor for advice. He even follows the advice even though is goes against what he would rather do. The wedding band being unbroken is a symbol of a bond not easily broken, whereas the shattering of the vase stands for how frail appearances and other superficial things are.
I agree that the wedding band being a symbol of a bond not easily broken, which would add to the pressure of being in an inescapable relationship. Edna may want out of her marriage to her husband, but would not be able to due to societal norms and conventions in that time period. So, not only is Edna basically suffocating in her marriage to her husband, she is stuck in it as well, with no chance of freedom, no matter how hard she may try. It does seem that Mr. Pontellier is hard on Edna, but that is not surprising given the fact that women were perceived as objects of possession back in that time. Her personality changes may be due to some mental instability (the drastic ups and downs), however, Mr. Pontellier was more worried about her mental health because she was not responding and acting like a proper woman that he thought she should, not out of pure love for Edna.
I think Mr. Pontellier cares for Edna, but not necessarily as a spouse. As was the common view of the time, the wife was considered property of the husband. In this sense, she was more a piece of property than a person. Additionally, he treated Edna very much like a rebellious child. He listened to his physician's advice and decided to simply let her spat run its course, much like one would a teenager. He also was unwilling to let her get out of his control. Even when he was away and she was living in the "pigeon house", he was still able to influence her and control her. This eventually drove Edna to commit suicide; she was unable to escape his jurisdiction. So while some would claim Mr. Pontellier did not love Edna, I think he did, just not the way one would typically love a wife.
I agree, I believe that the chapter where Edna steps on her ring is very significant in Edna's sense of freedom. I think in the earlier chapters, it really took Robert to make Edna feel comfortable in trying to surpass the boundaries of social responsibility in a sense. He helped her learn how to swim, and was there when she left church to sleep all day rather than return home to her family. Now that Robert is gone, I think Edna is trying to push boundaries without Robert supporting her as he did earlier. I also agree that clothing is an important symbol throughout the story. There was a part where Mademoiselle R. went on and on about Edna's figure in the bathing suit specifically, which coming from her was significant because Mademoiselle R. carries herself without much fear of offending anyone just as Edna is beginning to. Mademoiselle might be suggesting that Edna's changing personality is a good thing, rather than bad as Mr. Pontellier thinks.
The ring is of course symbolic. I challenge all of you (to be cliche) examine the gray in not just the ring, but in the characters and relationships. Nothing is black and white (cliche again) with this text. It is quite complex-not right/wrong, good/bad, love/hate, wife/husband, women/men.
Chapters 11-20 include a lot of symbolism of clothing, cigars, and wine to show the relationships between Edna and Robert, and Edna and her husband. Edna and Mr. Pontellier are starting to drift. She is starting to realize that she is not his possession. She isn't an object and doesn't have to do every single thing that he tells her to. When he is smoking the cigars, this is a symbol of masculinity. We notice that before, Mr. Pontellier asked Robert if he smoked. Robert replied that he did smoke cigars, but only on special occasions as they were not in his price range. This symbolizes how Mr. Pontellier has a more masculine personality than Robert. It also shows power over women since women were forbidden of smoking in these days. Edna is still under an oppression where she is told that she can and can't do certain things. As the story goes on, Edna starts removing pieces of clothing here and there. At one point she is naked, but only temporarily while she sleeps for a long time. Sleeping can also have a deeper meaning of dying. Edna having no clothes and stripping clothes off along the way can be a symbol that she is leaving the oppression of her husband, but can only do it through "sleeping" or death. She eventually wakes up and says she feels that she has slept for years. Chopin wrote, "When Edna awoke it was with the conviction that she had slept long and soundly. The voices were hushed under the shed."(13). The voices are meant to be the oppression she is feeling and the laws that she is expected to follow, including following her husband's orders. After she meets with Robert again, he tells her that he is leaving for Mexico. She realizes that she started to fall for him, but can't leave with him yet because of her husband and children, even though she would love to, but Edna also doesn't want a relationship or to be "tied down". She doesn't want to be a possession to anyone, including her kids which throws off her mother assets. She becomes a terrible mother because she thinks that being a mother includes being owned by her husband and she wants nothing to do with that.
ReplyDeleteIs leaving with Robert even a consideration for either of them? Do you think she truly loves him or loves how she feels with him? How does she and her exprience differ between the two men?
DeleteI don't think she considered it at the last second that he decided to leave. He probably started to realize that she was losing interest in him. She probably loves how she feels with him. He doesn't command her to do things like her husband does so it feels like he actually cares, but she realizes she's still a possession if she goes with him so she decides not to.
Delete“‘You used to think the cook was a treasure,’ returned Edna, indifferently. ‘Perhaps she was when she first came; but cooks are only human.” (pg. 79) At this point in chapter seventeen, Mr. Pontellier acts very rudely towards Edna. He complains that her cooking is awful, that she has gone out instead of taking calls, and he has noticed she’s not in her normal Tuesday reception gown. Edna might have gone out instead of taking calls just to prove her freedom rather than being confined to her home. During this scene, Mr. Pontellier also ends up leaving to go have dinner at the club. This leaves Edna with a feeling of unrest. She ends up flinging her wedding ring onto the carpet and stamping on it, but not a bit of it was ruined. I think these two passages together are symbolic not only of the Pontelliers’ relationship, but of relationships in that time period. Edna seems as though she doesn’t truly love her husband, and he is quite unloving himself towards her. Regardless, they are married and that’s not something that can change during this time period. It’s symbolic of the idea that Edna cannot free herself and she is bound to this relationship. Her husband objectifies her and expects her to live up to all his standards, but she just wants him to appreciate her. Edna enjoys Robert because he spent time with her. When she finds out earlier that Robert was going to Mexico without telling her, she gets very upset. I think Robert might have gone to Mexico to maybe get away from Edna. He might’ve realized that his feelings were too much to be near her while she is married, and he’s doing it for both of their benefits. When Robert leaves and Edna returns home, she becomes very lonely without him which might be the reason for her dressing badly at dinner or the dinner tasting bad.
ReplyDeleteEdna also seems overpowered by thoughts of religion. She becomes sleepy during a service and has to leave because of it and heads to Madame Antoine’s house. “Edna left alone in the little side room, loosened her clothes, removing the greater part of them.” (pg. 55) I believe Edna is sick of social norms and releasing her body of the clothing and sleeping for a long time is a symbol of her needing to be free. She seems to be confined by her husband, religion, and lifestyle. This could have been a way for her to release her stress.
I do not believe that Mr. Pontellier does not love his wife. I believe that he may objectify her from time to time, but this is not the true extent of their relationship. He loves her as a husband should. He is a man with a short temper and a man stuck in traditional ways. He is very much concerned about appearances, and that is why he is so frustrated with Edna when she starts acting different than normal. He still loves her though. He recognizes that something is very off, and even goes to the doctor for advice. He even follows the advice even though is goes against what he would rather do. The wedding band being unbroken is a symbol of a bond not easily broken, whereas the shattering of the vase stands for how frail appearances and other superficial things are.
DeleteI agree that the wedding band being a symbol of a bond not easily broken, which would add to the pressure of being in an inescapable relationship. Edna may want out of her marriage to her husband, but would not be able to due to societal norms and conventions in that time period. So, not only is Edna basically suffocating in her marriage to her husband, she is stuck in it as well, with no chance of freedom, no matter how hard she may try. It does seem that Mr. Pontellier is hard on Edna, but that is not surprising given the fact that women were perceived as objects of possession back in that time. Her personality changes may be due to some mental instability (the drastic ups and downs), however, Mr. Pontellier was more worried about her mental health because she was not responding and acting like a proper woman that he thought she should, not out of pure love for Edna.
DeleteI think Mr. Pontellier cares for Edna, but not necessarily as a spouse. As was the common view of the time, the wife was considered property of the husband. In this sense, she was more a piece of property than a person. Additionally, he treated Edna very much like a rebellious child. He listened to his physician's advice and decided to simply let her spat run its course, much like one would a teenager. He also was unwilling to let her get out of his control. Even when he was away and she was living in the "pigeon house", he was still able to influence her and control her. This eventually drove Edna to commit suicide; she was unable to escape his jurisdiction. So while some would claim Mr. Pontellier did not love Edna, I think he did, just not the way one would typically love a wife.
DeleteI agree, I believe that the chapter where Edna steps on her ring is very significant in Edna's sense of freedom. I think in the earlier chapters, it really took Robert to make Edna feel comfortable in trying to surpass the boundaries of social responsibility in a sense. He helped her learn how to swim, and was there when she left church to sleep all day rather than return home to her family. Now that Robert is gone, I think Edna is trying to push boundaries without Robert supporting her as he did earlier. I also agree that clothing is an important symbol throughout the story. There was a part where Mademoiselle R. went on and on about Edna's figure in the bathing suit specifically, which coming from her was significant because Mademoiselle R. carries herself without much fear of offending anyone just as Edna is beginning to. Mademoiselle might be suggesting that Edna's changing personality is a good thing, rather than bad as Mr. Pontellier thinks.
ReplyDeleteThe ring is of course symbolic. I challenge all of you (to be cliche) examine the gray in not just the ring, but in the characters and relationships. Nothing is black and white (cliche again) with this text. It is quite complex-not right/wrong, good/bad, love/hate, wife/husband, women/men.
ReplyDelete